PDA

View Full Version : zrx/zzr upgrade



bob
24th July 2005, 06:22 PM
A few questions for you guys, hope you can help me.
1) Are there any problems with the valves hitting the pistons when fitting zzr1100 cams to a zrx1100? I've read that some of you have fitted them, so I guess there are no problems, but I thought I'd better ask than finding out the hard way. :knock: What timing should they be set at for best performance?
2) Can 40mm cv carbs be used on the zrx? Of course the ports etc will have to be modified, but can the carbs be modified to be mounted at the angle of the zrx head? Fitting the zrx floatbowls to them?

Purge
24th July 2005, 09:19 PM
Valves have plenty of clearance, I just used the standard ZZR camshaft sprockets and ZRX timing marks. 130plus bhp, so must be OK.

I have no idea about the carbs, sounds difficult, you'd be better with flatslides for top power.

:purge:

bob
25th July 2005, 08:17 PM
Thanks for the info. I want to fit 40mm cv carbs of a gsxr1100w, for optimum power and ride-ability. But they're hard to find, not that many of them around in the first place and plenty of demand. Same as zzr1100 cams then.

bob
27th July 2005, 08:41 PM
YES! I've just bought the 40mm CV carbs AND the complete zzr1100 top end I was after. Now at least I've got almost all the parts I'll need. :sunny:

Purge
28th July 2005, 01:01 PM
If you're going to fit the ZZR head, we'd be interested how you get on.

No-one here has done it due to the frame rails being in the way of the angled carbs.

:purge:

bob
28th July 2005, 09:27 PM
If you're going to fit the ZZR head, we'd be interested how you get on.

No-one here has done it due to the frame rails being in the way of the angled carbs.

:purge:
No, I'm going to use the cams, but he would only sell as a complete top end. The tuner will port the zrx-head, to fit the 40mm carbs, perhaps larger valves as well (from the zzr?).

bob
28th July 2005, 09:29 PM
By the way, I didn't see a chapter in 'pitstop' about fitting a zzr cdi ('black box'). Has anyone done this? Is it worth the money?

jooles
28th July 2005, 11:39 PM
also talking about cdi read a thread on the yanke site about fitting zrx1200 cdi onto 1100 better ignition mapping ect anyone done this mode would be intresting if made a diffrence or not

Purge
29th July 2005, 11:54 AM
ZZR11 to ZRX11 CDI swap has been done on the US site.
Not a direct swap as the wiring and connectors are different and no-one has ever managed to post what goes where, especially around the K-Trik gubbins.
It should be able to raise the rev limit, but be careful as the ZZR has double (& stronger) valve springs to cope with the raised limit.

Dunno about ZRX12 to ZRX11.

:purge:

bob
29th July 2005, 10:08 PM
I'm fitting 40mm carbs of a gsxr1100w, so the k-tric 'stuff' will be removed anyway. And modifying the ignition will be necessary anyway. Also I have a complete zzr1100 top end, including the valve springs. This could become a very interesting project :hmm:

bob
31st July 2005, 12:23 AM
Update on the zzr parts; what I thought was just a top end included a crank, rods, pistons & block. I've allready taken the cams and tappets out, there's quite some wear but they seem acceptable to me. The gixxer carbs are in usable condition as well. I've found a zzr rear wheel with brake disc, hope to pick that up tomorrow.
Anybody need crank, rods, pistons & block of a zzr1100? ;-)

bob
2nd August 2005, 09:08 PM
Another update;
The zzr parts I got as a bonus are pretty well useless, the #3 main bearing had gone, #3 piston has a tear in the skirt :eek: The head and valve-assembly seem usable, but theres a lot of carbon deposits on the valves. The block seems not too bad, will have the tuner take a look at it. May I'll keep it as a spare.
I picked up the zzr wheel, almost cost as much again in fuel. Still not too expensive, but it'll have to be powdercoated as it's gold-coloured. Looks like I'll have to get a front wheel to match, they're just too different.

Purge
2nd August 2005, 11:43 PM
Shame the block and pistons weren't re-usable, you could have got a small compression ratio increase by fitting them.
:purge:

artzzr
3rd August 2005, 09:29 AM
hi
can sell someone a good spare zzr piston for little money , and that would make a good usuable kit
art

bob
3rd August 2005, 11:34 PM
I've got my heart set on bigger displacement, so not bothered much about the zzr stuff. I'll be talking to my tuner about the options tomorrow. :)

bob
6th August 2005, 09:42 PM
I've talked to mr. Nolen, this is what we've decided on;
-oversize valves won't be necessary
-I need to find inlet rubbers and bellmouths for my carbs
-we'll set up the ignition system later, will run it with the stock system on the dyno first
-if I do upgrade to a zzr black box, then preferably one that's not of a california/switzerland bike as it may be restricted
-1109 wiseco (yeah!)
-bigger radiator, maybe even an oilcooler, and I need temp sensors/gauges for oil and water
-cranck will need to be balanced if we remove the counterbalancer, will give extra hp on it's own
Also I'm looking into buying a "damperless clutch hub"

Any advice and/or observations from you guys will be appreciated.

artzzr
6th August 2005, 09:59 PM
hi bob
for the clutch hub you need to fit one from an old zx10 around 60-70 new
you will also have to get 5mm spacers turned if you are not using the zx10 springs and bolts
art

bob
6th August 2005, 11:19 PM
Thanks art, I was (am) interested in the one carl from zrxoa.com makes, but the zx10 one is cheaper and less hassle to get hold of. :thumb:

bob
7th August 2005, 12:14 AM
I've been looking for sensors and display/gauge for oil and coolant temperature (and pressure). There seem to be a lot of options, but nothing that seems to be exactly what I want. I'm looking for something that's precise and has a small display or gauge. And not one of those expensive posh ones from stack or vdo. I remember one type of OE gauge that has 2 needles, one for oil temp, another for water. Does anyone of you know what bike has something like that and if it could be fitted to a zrx?

CR
7th August 2005, 02:37 AM
Why not something like that ? seems small & accurate enough

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2587/new8aq.jpg

bob
9th August 2005, 09:30 PM
CR have you used this yourself? or another gauge from autogauge? are they accurate&reliable? looks like the sort of thing that's likely to fuse at the first drop of rain. probably cheapish, definitely very much "made in china".

CR
10th August 2005, 03:02 AM
Nope, haven't used it, the MOTO DETAIL oil temp gauge i have is cheap, but i wasn't expecting it to last a lifetime anyway, if it fails very soon, i'll look for another brand.
In a digital gauge, accuracy shouldn't be an issue, reliability has to do with price, if it's cheap and it lasts for a couple of years (it has to have a warranty anyway) then i think it worths it, problem is that when i was looking, couldn't find anything else :dunno:

bob
10th August 2005, 09:51 PM
I've got a motodetail gauge (it screws in where your fillercap goes) as well. I don't have much confidence in it either. Even though it's digital it may still be inaccurate, I think. Could be slow, engine will seize before it's in the red... :doh: I think I'll either modify some OE stuff or buy one of those "all singing all dancing" fancy ones

CR
10th August 2005, 10:10 PM
Bob, i think you're a bit paranoid abt this, it's very easy to calibrate your oil temp gauge, just by sticking a simple cooking thermometer in the oil filler, but +- 3deg. C doesn't mean anything at the end, dangerous area for the Rex starts at 105deg. now if there's no prob. your bike will work at max. 95deg (rarely and thats here where it gets 38-40ged. amb. temp.) so if it's start raising to lets say 100deg. you will stop to see whats going on, i don't think you'll wait to reach 105 right? What i mean is your bike works normally pretty far from the red line, so there's plenty of time to watch it go above normal untill it reaches red line.
Speed is not an issue since every temp gauge can indicate the temp much faster than it takes for 3.5lt of oil to heat up.

bob
13th August 2005, 12:17 PM
You're right CR, but with a month's (or two..) salary of engine work and parts planned, I want to keep track of what's going on in there ;-) Especially with the amount of dyno-testing time it's going to take to sort out the carbs and exhausts. I'm looking more towards warning lights (leds) for temp and pressure now, perhaps with a single lcd display. Compact and light, maybe I can hide them in a clock pod or something.

Question time again;

-Who's had engine heat problems with a wiseco 1109cc kit?

-Has anybody fitted zx12r forks on their zrx1100? I've read on zrxoa.com they're about 20mm shorter, sounds like the outer limits of what would be acceptable. I've got my eye on a set with 320mm PVM discs for notalotofmoney, that would look so good (TechnoLust!) with my 6pots, LSL yokes and a ZZR1100 wheel.

-What about gsxr1100 upside down forks? Can the gixer stem be fitted with different bearings? The discs seem the same diameter, but I may be wrong. Would be cheaper than the zx12r set,but not as trick.

Thanks, Bob

yox
13th August 2005, 03:16 PM
-What about gsxr1100 upside down forks? Can the gixer stem be fitted with different bearings? The discs seem the same diameter, but I may be wrong. Would be cheaper than the zx12r set,but not as trick


-Has anybody fitted zx12r forks on their zrx1100? I've read on zrxoa.com they're about 20mm shorter, sounds like the outer limits of what would be acceptable. I've got my eye on a set with 320mm PVM discs for notalotofmoney, that would look so good (TechnoLust!) with my 6pots, LSL yokes and a ZZR1100 wheel.

firstly you would have to use the zrx stem pressed into what ever bottom yoke you use, or get a stem made to the same dims as the zrx one to suit the bottom yoke, its an esy mod to do especially if know an engineer,

with forks of a shorter length, you can have them extended to suit, still have all the adjustments to hand, i did this on my own bike(1984 z1100r with zxr750j forks) with no problems, or use zx9r b forks which are similar length.
its easier to use brakes and wheel from the doner forks but you can mix and match with a bit of work.

bob
13th August 2005, 04:51 PM
Thanks Yox, I've pretty much made up my mind over the last hours.

Can't seem to find a set of zx9r forks.

The gsx-r forks were described as 'scruffy' even by the owner. Would cost me 140 pounds to have them rebuilt, that takes away most of the cost advantage.

I've got a gsxr1100wp (in bits all over the shed & the living room) as well, I've compared the discs to my zrx. Hard to measure precisely, but it seems the mounting points dont match by a mm or so. Can't fit a gsxr front wheel, because it won't match the zzr rear. Discs seem to be same diameter, but again hard to measure exactly with the zrx wheel stil on the bike. Don't even know if they'll line up in the calipers, better stick with Kawasaki stuff, more chance of an almost straight fit.

Not only does the zzr front wheel fit straight on the zx12r axle, zx12r forks are said to be quite good. These have only done 8000 miles. Works out as 260 pounds for the fork legs and 170 pounds for the PVM brakes. If it's in good condition, as claimed, that seems reasonable to me.

Still need a zzr1100d front wheel, hope to get one for 70 pounds or less, I was offered one for 90 and another for 140!

If I take the 90 pound wheel, ad the LSL yokes (which I bought for the Bakker-GSXR but never mind) at 125, I would have spent; 645 pounds for a whole front end. Add a set of special brake pads because of the cast iron discs, some machining of yokes/spacers/axle/stem.

This TechnoLust stuff is almost as expensive as a girlfriend. Hope I haven't bored you with my problems, feels good to type it out though.

TeZREX
14th August 2005, 08:51 PM
Saw an article in Performance Bikes magazine with some modded american Rexes one was fitted with ZX12 forks so it can be done..
Good luck!!
Tez

yox
14th August 2005, 08:59 PM
dont add the cost up!, specials always cost, look on ebay for wheels got mine for 45 front and rear, your right to match the wheels otherwise it looks shit, i used all kwakstuff on mine and yes there is alot of parts that cross over, all i had to do was make some spacers for the wheels, not bad for an 80's bike fitted with 90's stuff,
good luck with the build

bob
14th August 2005, 11:20 PM
Thanks guys, I'll ad some pics when things get interesting.

Value for my hard (ish) earned money is what I'm after. With the parts I've already bought, I guess going for second-best forks doesn't make sense.

I've been offered a front wheel or two, I'll see what can be negotiated.

TI GG RRRRRRRRRR
16th August 2005, 12:02 AM
I've been offered a front wheel or two, I'll see what can be negotiated.

:hmm: two front wheels.......... now that's a mod ;)

zeerexer
16th August 2005, 05:21 AM
I don't know why no one has tried two front wheels? :crazy: There is a fellow with a hayabusa that has two rear wheels... Seems he kept showing up at the bike shows with a bike that looked like all the other hayabusas so he extended the rear swingarm and fitted another wheel-and the attention was immediate. He is working on putting power to it last i knew- Sounds like you are going to have a mean looking and running bike. I hope you will post the problems and solutions that you run into. Keep posting and i will keep reading... :thumb:

bob
16th August 2005, 11:40 PM
I'll probably buy one front, would be nice to have a spare for different tyre or make changing them easier. But a bit OTT. Still looking for a bargain one, but I want to get it underway. Picking up the forks and discs friday, then I want to have a front wheel by next week. So I can send the bits I want powdercoated away, want to offer as one batch so the colours match.

Been offered quite a few zzr1100 cdi's, but I only want one I'm sure isn't restricted. So I've been looking at the partnumbers on kawasaki.com, spotting a california one should be possible, but I'm also suspicious of swiss and even german and all american ones. Can anyone shed more light on this?

bob
16th August 2005, 11:45 PM
Question time again;

-Who's had engine heat problems with a wiseco 1109cc kit?

Thanks, Bob

So can the silence on this subject be taken as a 'NO' ???
I'll probably get a different radiator anyway, if for cosmetics only (the original one is a bit tatty, the r/h cover is scratched) if I can find a nice one.

Thanks again, bob

bob
20th August 2005, 06:13 PM
Well I've picked up the zx12r fork legs and pvm discs. The pvm's are awesome, very light. :ninja:

artzzr
21st August 2005, 12:47 AM
hi bob
you can get water wetter which helps soak away the heat a bit faster
i has a wiesco kit fitted, and later upgraded to a cosworth 1137cc kit, and presently running an SBM 1255cc block , cams etc, with 185 hp rear wheel , and no engine heat problems
art

yox
21st August 2005, 12:53 PM
hi bob
you can get water wetter which helps soak away the heat a bit faster



how does that work then?

artzzr
21st August 2005, 10:58 PM
hi
water wetter can be bought from demon tweeks
works by reducing the temperature , as it is an additive that helps the water to conduct the heat better
art

bob
21st August 2005, 11:12 PM
Thanks (again) Art, are you using an oilcooler?

Then there's a long shot; a trick zx9r crank has been for sale for quite a while here. Now I've done the obvious things, checked the partnumbers and the exploded views, nothing seems to match. But I've got an upper crankcase and conrods of a zzr1100 in my livingroom, my plan is to drive to the seller and offer up that crank. If it fits, does that meen it will fit my zrx1100? Does anyone know for certain there's no realistic way it can be made to fit?

Purge
22nd August 2005, 01:35 PM
how does that work then?

I guess it raises the boiling point of the coolant, therefore for a given pressure in a sealed system, the coolant can run a higher temp, therefore a bigger temp difference between inside and outside, therefore more heat can be transferred away :dunno:

:purge:

Pal
22nd August 2005, 01:48 PM
As I understood it, water wetter affects the surface tension of the coolant allowing it to absorb and dispel heat better.

DANNY
22nd August 2005, 01:58 PM
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/redtech3.htm :hmm:

yox
23rd August 2005, 12:55 AM
Not much good for me then!:lol:

Purge
26th August 2005, 03:22 PM
:Hmm:

So best value for money for my track bike is to fill with pure water and drain the system off-season to prevent freezing.

Good info, added to Pitstop :thumb:

:purge:

Pal
26th August 2005, 05:24 PM
They took a long time to say what I did in one line. :doh:

bob
30th August 2005, 10:04 PM
I've started stripping down my zrx. I've offered up the 40mm carbs, of course the spacing is wrong, I might be able to sort it with the rails of the original carbs and some work :biggrin: The carbs only just clear the frame though, I'll have to mount the coils elsewhere. ZZR1100 inlet rubbers are in the post, I hope they'll fit easily.

bob
31st August 2005, 10:10 PM
The inlet rubbers were delivered today. Of course the first thing I did after coming home from working late, was offer them up. Not only do they fit straight on the head, they also match the ports! Then fit one onto the 40mm CV Mikuni's... straight fit again! I'm so happy, all I could do was laugh (little things please little minds, I know).

bob
16th September 2005, 10:16 PM
Well the rubbers match the ports and the carbs. But the carbs don't match the ports ofcourse! The spacing is wrong, must be -10mm on 1&2 (and 3&4), -4mm on 2&3. So I've started modifying the carbs, and it's not been easy, but it's getting along. I'll do a full report when it's done if anyone is interested.
Second issue; the bigger carbs foul the coils, so I'll have to mount these elsewhere.

Now a question for you; Who has had his (or her) crank lightened? By how much exactly?
I've found a place to have the work done, recommended by a colleague, but they mostly do racing engines for cars. So I have to know the specs beforehand.
Thanks Bob

artzzr
16th September 2005, 10:55 PM
hi
chris appleby lightened, balanced and polished my zzr crank around 6 years ago
not cheap but 5lbs removed
art

bob
17th September 2005, 10:09 PM
Thanks Art! :hail:
Don't know about prices yet, was quoted a very reasonable amount by a balancing specialist. But they don't do crank lightening. It'll be alright, I'm sure I can work something out.
Still haven't got a front wheel to match the zzr1100 rear. Maybe I won't bother and wait for a trick set for a baqrgain price. Or... wire spoke wheels. What do y'all think? 17'' rims for wire spokes come in all sizes nowadays, including 5,5'' wide rears. But I'd have to find the right hubs to mount my brake discs, do they even exist :confused:

artzzr
18th September 2005, 07:12 PM
Thanks Art! :hail:
Don't know about prices yet, was quoted a very reasonable amount by a balancing specialist. But they don't do crank lightening. It'll be alright, I'm sure I can work something out.
Still haven't got a front wheel to match the zzr1100 rear. Maybe I won't bother and wait for a trick set for a baqrgain price. Or... wire spoke wheels. What do y'all think? 17'' rims for wire spokes come in all sizes nowadays, including 5,5'' wide rears. But I'd have to find the right hubs to mount my brake discs, do they even exist :confused:
hi bob
should not have much bother getting a zx11 front wheel if you log into bigbikeworld
quite a lot of people there with zx11s have upgraded to zx9 lighter wheels
art

bob
18th September 2005, 07:24 PM
There's plenty zzr1100 wheels at breakers around here, but at breakers pices. So if I must, I can get one easily. But I've got 'till spring, so I'll hang around for a bargain. Like the idea of the wire spoke wheels though, they're the new black you know :rolleyes: